OK...I've bit my tongue long enough

[hork]

i'm gonna refrain from the finger pointing and the blame laying etc.

but i'm forced to ask, which part of the health care proposal is it exactly you have issues with?

is it the fact that 31 million uninsured folks will now be covered?

is it the fact that it will stop unpopular industry practices such as denying coverage to people with pre-existing conditions or charging women more?

is it the fact that it will give the federal government the authority to block rate hikes, roll back premium prices and force insurance companies to give rebates to consumers?

is it the new proposal that would repeal the proposed tax hikes on health care insurance for those with policies that are valued at under 28,000 a year?

or maybe that it will close the "doughnut hole" coverage gap in the Medicare prescription drug benefits?

or maybe that the proposal provides more subsidies for purchasing insurance, aid will be available for households making up to four times the federal poverty level ($88,200 for a family of four).

or maybe the abortion issue? of course with regard to that issue, no health plan would be required to offer coverage for abortions, and in plans that do cover abortion, beneficiaries would have to pay for it separately, and that money would have to be kept in a separate account from taxpayer money. Furthermore, states can ban abortion coverage in plans offered through the exchange. The only exceptions made will be for cases of rape, incest and danger to the life of the mother.

i'm curious, which provision out of these major changes to the current health coverage system is it you take issue with? it will be easier to discuss once we clarify what exactly the points of contention are.

[StockTrader]

It is the part that a huge section of that 31 million are uninsured by choice.

It is the fact that women do cost more, especially women of childbearing age. Why would they not pay more .. ?

Yes, it is the fact that the Government has the ability to block rate hikes. If the market were more free, people would just switch providers.

Expand on this doughnut hole thing.

[sarcasm]Those people making $88+ with four members in the family might need help. Why stop there? After all, everybody should be treated equally.[/sarcasm]

I am indifferent about abortion. I am morally against it, but I have no right to say what one is allowed to do and what one is not allowed to do. Again, the idea makes me sick but it is still an individual issue, not a state or federal issue.

Now, lets talk.

[rich76]

1. According to the New England Journal of Medicine 29% of doctors would quit the profession
2. The Senate's version DOES fund abortion
3. The govt has screwed up medicare/medicade/amtrak/postal service etc...WTF do they think they can run this effectively?
4.Back room deals all over the place in this bill
5.Obama promised televised coverage of the healthcare discussions...we got zilch
6.The bill will FORCE people to get coverage whether they want or could afford it or not
7.People that do not DESERVE it will get coverage
8.The MILLIONS and MILLIONS spent on advertising this debacle is just adding to our already enormous deficit
9.By all the polls I'm reading a majority of Americans do not want this bill to pass as it is...and the jackoffs in Washington are going to attempt to ram it down our throats anyway...and are bragging about that exact fact.

enough for now......

[tymy]

Do you truely understand what this bill means to the lower class American worker?

Yes, we now have to give you health care insurance. That is if you work an average of 30 hours a week. Because we cannot afford the co-pay of this program you will now only work 20 hours a week.

Sorry, but you just took a big cut in pay thanks to Mr. Obama and his insistence on raming this down our throats.

Are Americans really so clueless/blindfolded that they don't see this coming?

[hork]

1. According to the New England Journal of Medicine 29% of doctors would quit the profession

actually while that may have appeared in the NEJM, the data is from a medicus poll of 1000 medical doctors aged 55 and up conducted back in september of 2009 (prior to the current version of the bills)

2. The Senate's version DOES fund abortion

simply not true. in fact the senate version specifically states that all funding for health clinics (the point of contention for this misinformation) is subject to the Hyde ammendment which explicitly rules out the funding of abortion with federal dollars in all cases that don't involve rape or threat of to the mother's life

3. The govt has screwed up medicare/medicade/amtrak/postal service etc...WTF do they think they can run this effectively?

as i'd rather not get into hypothetical and tangential debates i'll leave this for conspiracy theorists and naysayers to debate.

4.Back room deals all over the place in this bill

did you support the Patriot Act, the war in iraq, the war in afghanistan, NAFTA, CAFTA, SALT treaties, or any act of congress dating back the past 50+ yrs? if so how can you justify chastising this one for "back room deals" while i agree that legislation on the floor should be limited in text to the topic at hand we all know without doubt that hasn't been the case for at least 50 yrs. bill a law any law and prove me wrong.

5.Obama promised televised coverage of the healthcare discussions...we got zilch

i mean this in all sincerity. can you please send me a list of the media outlets you frequent. because all of the news shows i watch from the daily show to foxnews have this topic and folks from their preferred side shoving bias and slant down my throat day in and day out. thankfully every once in a while i actually get to hear both sides on the same show (thank you bill maher)

6.The bill will FORCE people to get coverage whether they want or could afford it or not

but what you fail to mention is those who can't afford it (read earn less than 4 times the poverty level for a family of four) will be provided subsidies and granted easier access to government funded programs. in additon you seem to be assuming that it's your right not to be covered and in refusing coverage you are risking no one's well being but your own (using your as a general term). this again is simply not true. in fact the uninsured are the biggest public health cost to taxpayers in the form of loss wages and incurred cost to medical facilities in the form of emergency treatments. persons can not be legally refused medical treatment in case of emergencies. and if they don't pay the hospitals lose money which they need to recoup in order to continue operations, ask yourself, where do they recoup these astronomical losses?

7.People that do not DESERVE it will get coverage

i don't want to get into a philosophical debate about the value of human life. but with the exception of illegal aliens (who will not be granted coverage under this legislation) who exactly is unworthy of being able to receive health care in time of need?

8.The MILLIONS and MILLIONS spent on advertising this debacle is just adding to our already enormous deficit

what you fail to mention is that this is simply unfair. none of the advertising you see on tv, hear on the radio, or read in the paper is paid for by tax dollars. it is all paid for by special interest groups from both sides of the debate and therefore has no effect what so ever on the deficit.

9.By all the polls I'm reading a majority of Americans do not want this bill to pass as it is...and the jackoffs in Washington are going to attempt to ram it down our throats anyway...and are bragging about that exact fact.

i need to see your polls. because i have seen recent gallup and rasmussen polls that contradict your statement. both of which show that 78.8 (in gallup) and 87.4 (rasmussen) percent of the population strongly support health care reform (although to be fair the number of folks who would be willing to settle for lesser degree is near 50% in both polls)

[tymy]

The best news in all of this is unless the chosen one can pull off a miracle he will be one and done.

[StockTrader]

Originally Posted by hork

i need to see your polls. because i have seen recent gallup and rasmussen polls that contradict your statement. both of which show that 78.8 (in gallup) and 87.4 (rasmussen) percent of the population strongly support health care reform (although to be fair the number of folks who would be willing to settle for lesser degree is near 50% in both polls)

I would tend to agree that people want to see REFORM! But this bill is not about REFORM. This bill is about Universal Healthcare. Reform would be limiting lawsuits against doctors that do not deserve to be sued. Malpractice is a HUGE [, HUGE, HUGE] cost to people that practice medicine.

Nick

[StockTrader]

An article worth the read: http://bit.ly/d8wCNk

It is about HC and the true savings that will take place. This is from the AP.

Nick

[rich76]

Originally Posted by StockTrader

An article worth the read: http://bit.ly/d8wCNk

It is about HC and the true savings that will take place. This is from the AP.

Nick

thanks for that NIck....business as usual...we get part of the truth...not the whole truth. No big deal though....politics as usual...for as long as I can remember.

[spoc22]

I remember ken telling me he appreciated the discussions that took place here, (at least between him and I) because they were so much more civil than others he was involved in on other sites.

[hork]

Originally Posted by spoc22

I remember ken telling me he appreciated the discussions that took place here, (at least between him and I) because they were so much more civil than others he was involved in on other sites.

i remember saying that too, and like i said then i don't have to agree with someone but can't help but respect them when their opinions are presented in a dignified and respectful fashion. an art that seems to have been lost of late.

[spoc22]

Probably because I haven't been around much

[rich76]

tel me your opinion on this one Ken..and I have more.....

My wife is 55 years old and without health insurance. It appears that due to a few things lately in personal situations we may be able to get her covered soon....BUT... it now appears with this debacle of reform that she will be charged a premium that includes maternity coverage and she has NO option to not have that coverage! That being said...if she chooses NOT to have any coverage she will be required to cough up 750.00 or 950.00 (can't remember) for that privilege.

WTF?

[oldstewball]

This tax bill is totally unconstitutional. The government has no right to tell us we must buy any product from a corporation. Doesn't matter if the product is good or bad for us. They simply don't have the right to force everyone to buy health insurance, or anything else.

[SayOw]

Originally Posted by oldstewball

This tax bill is totally unconstitutional. The government has no right to tell us we must buy any product from a corporation. Doesn't matter if the product is good or bad for us. They simply don't have the right to force everyone to buy health insurance, or anything else.

That argument is already too late and has already been ignored...

ie: auto insurance