The War on Christmas

[P562045]

Originally Posted by spoc22

REVEREND Martin Luther King, Jr

No wonder during this holiday he is usually called Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

A person learns something new everyday.

I will have to watch next month to see if he is even mentioned as a reverend when the media talks about him. But they have so little time to talk about anything.

I often ask myself this question around that time of year.

Is there much more to Dr. King than what he did on August 28, 1963?

But never fear we may be lucky to get a minute segment on the life of Dr. King on the evening news next month. Or maybe not because the Michigan primary is going to be around that time next month as well. We may be very lucky to get a thirty second sound byte on the life of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

[hork]

well, first of all King isn't celebrated as a religious figure but as a civil right's activist. while it was a nice try it was a bit of a reach I'm sure you'll agree.

secondly, I personally see no reason why the birth of Christ shouldn't be celebrated by the faithful. nor do i see any reason why it shouldn't be recognized as such. Just so long as equal opportunity and visibility is given to all religious holidays with regard to public and government institutions. If my town wants to decorate for Christmas so be it, I have absolutely no problem with that just so long as they'll do the same for each and every religion that requests similar celebration.

if for whatever reason that's not the case, then we clearly have a violation of the establishment clause and that's where the problems begin.

[ldzppln]

Originally Posted by spoc22

One question I've asked and have yet to be answered is simply this:
Why can we celebrate the birthday of REVEREND Martin Luther King, Jr (a religious figure) but can't celebrate the birth of Jesus ( a religious figure)?

I don't understand the issue here.

We celebrate the life of Martin Luther King, Jr, the equal rights activist, nobel peace prize winner, and instrumental leader of the American civil rights movement. We don't celebrate his religion, but rather his dedication to, and his accomplishments in the pursuit of equal rights for all Americans.

And last I checked, we are all free to celebrate the birth of Jesus of Nazerath, the only Son of God, the Prince of peace, our Lord and Savior who died so that sins may be forgiven (and so on and so forth). In fact, a lot of us celebrate his birth, life, death and resurrection on a regular basis.

[P562045]

Is it easy to separate the civil rights leader from the religious leader when talking about one of the most memorable speeches Dr. King ever gave in his life?

I must go back to August 28, 1963.

These are the religious references in the speech. There are fourteen obvious ones to me and there are probably more that I do not even mention her.

This is where the spiritual leader and the civil rights leader are one in the same in my opinion.

1. Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, America has given the Negro people a bad check, a check which has come back marked "insufficient funds."

2. Now is the time to make justice a reality for all of God's children.

3. Continue to work with the faith that unearned suffering is redemptive.

4. "and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh shall see it together."

5. This is our hope, and this is the faith that I go back to the South with.

6,7,8. With this faith, we will be able to hew out of the mountain of despair a stone of hope. With this faith, we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood. With this faith, we will be able to work together, to pray together, to struggle together, to go to jail together, to stand up for freedom together, knowing that we will be free one day.

9. And this will be the day -- this will be the day when all of God's children will be able to sing with new meaning:

10,11,12,13 And when this happens, when we allow freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual:

14. Free at last! Free at last!

Thank God Almighty, we are free at last!

Text Version of the speech.

[hork]

Originally Posted by P562045

Is there much more to Dr. King than what he did on August 28, 1963?

i sincerely hope that was written tongue-in-cheek.

[StockTrader]

Originally Posted by hork

i sincerely hope that was written tongue-in-cheek.

I believe he was making the point that all we hear about is the "I have a dream" speech, and one would think that is the only thing he did ... but, maybe I am wrong? Peter?

Nick

[P562045]

Originally Posted by hork

i sincerely hope that was written tongue-in-cheek.

Yes it most definitely was. I want people to learn the whole story and not just bits and pieces that are memorable. I truly believe that people should learn much more about Dr. King than they do from watching television especially. I would be interested to learn how much of Dr. King's actual story is taught in high schools.

Originally Posted by StockTrader

I believe he was making the point that all we hear about is the "I have a dream" speech, and one would think that is the only thing he did ... but, maybe I am wrong? Peter?

Nick

Yes that is exactly the point I making. There are many more parts of the story than just that one day. I do find it rather ironic that Mrs. Clinton would go into her southern drawl at the very place that really started to wind down the civil rights movement. Up until Selma yes there were many run ins with law enforcement officials but that day people started to see with their very own eyes on television the resistance that the civil rights movement was up against. And I think that one other thing may of happened as well. There were many people that were in pure denial that African Americans were being mistreated but this one incident could not let this continue for very much longer. Something just tells me that Selma was the start of enough is enough and we can't take this anymore. There are some pretty disturbing images from both photographs and television that people could just not turn the other way and keep denying what was happening. Now of course this is my own interpretation of what happened but I don't think what I said if people really examined it closely it would not be very far from what people were really thinking at the time.

There is something else that happened that started in Selma. There was a four day march to the state capitol in Montgomery. What were these people marching for? It is so that African Americans could gain the right to vote in the state of Alabama. And at least of few of us can still remember this. It is incomprehensible to me that anybody would not be able to vote in the State of Alabama and this is only 42 years ago not one hundred plus years ago or something. By the end of that year [1965] President Johnson signed into law the Voting Rights Act.

Now of course that does not totally end the story of the civil rights movement but the civil rights movement does tend to move more rapidly after that.

Now I wonder if Selma is even mentioned when it comes to Dr. King or not when it comes to history books especially in high school when kids could grasp the concept of what was happening at the time a little bit better.

There is a bit of irony I did not really even know the story of Selma until Mrs. Clinton went to that church in Selma earlier this year. And when I did learn at least part of the story of what happened in Selma I just shook my head when I remembered what Mrs. Clinton had done while she was in Selma.

[P562045]

Just so people know the elementary school that I can walk to from my house easily is having their winter party this week.

I knew I should have never asked.

[hork]

the reason you perceive the civil rights movement to roll faster after selma is because of the struggle that preceeded selma. for example,

Brown v. Board of Education
Emmett Till
Montgomery Bus Boycott
Desegregation at Little Rock
Freedom Rides
Mississippi Riot
The Sixteenth Street Baptist Church
Joseph McNeill and the Woolworth sit in
the kneel-ins at churches who denied blacks entry (as if God is prejudice)
March on Washington
Malcolm X's delivery of “The Ballot or the Bullet”
Assassination of Malcolm X

all of which (and much much more)preceded the march in Selma.


Of course it's a bit unfair to believe the struggle ended with a voting rights act. the struggle continued (still does) for much longer. For example:

The Civil Rights Restoration Act which was vehemently opposed by Reagan (surprise surprise)

Congress's struggle to pass the Civil Rights Act of 1991 which even though stood for equal protection under the law was vetoed twice by President Bush (again, surprise surprise)

now for sure african-americans have made large strides in our nation rising as high as public office and CEO status. but only a fool would believe the journey is finished. and only a fool would believe that there aren't other groups out there now engaged in the same struggle for equal opportunity and protection.

while the label may have changed (i.e., the group being discriminated against), the struggle continues for equality, justice, and civil rights in this supposed land of opportunity.

[-mmm-]

Im fascinated by how this thread shifted from nativity scenes to civil rights history.

Anyways, when I was in high school we had to study about the Selma to Montgomery march (among other events in the civil rights movement). Though we were never forced to memorize the I Have A Dream speech in the same way we were forced to recite the Gettysburg Address (as a kid at that time, I was thankful for that).

But I also know that since than (I had my 10 year reunion this past summer) changes in state guidelines and NCLB has probably drastically changed how they teach such things in schools these days.

One thing you might find interesting since you asked about it, they teach about the American civil rights movement in Chinese schools too. They focus on it enough that on the maps they have in the back of their social studies books, they mark out Little Rock and Montgomery more instead of Dallas or Nashville like they do in most American books.

[P562045]

Why does it not surprise me that students in China it sounds like to me learn more about the civil rights movement in school than in the country where the events actually happened?



I am just trying to learn a little bit about Malcom X. What was his contributions to the civil rights movement? And I am really trying to learn and not being sarcastic with the question.

Malcom X and Dr. King did make contributions to the civil rights movement but in very different ways. My perception has always been that Dr. King wanted equality through using non violent methods as much as humanly possible and Malcom X was the exact opposite if violence was necessary then Malcom X would use violence if he needed to when it comes to goals that he wanted to accomplish.

[P562045]

Originally Posted by hork

the reason you perceive the civil rights movement to roll faster after selma is because of the struggle that preceeded selma. for example,

1955 Brown v. Board of Education
1955 Emmett Till
Dec 1955 to Dec 1956 Montgomery Bus Boycott
1957 Desegregation at Little Rock
early 1960's Freedom Rides
1964 Mississippi Riot
1963 The Sixteenth Street Baptist Church
1960 Joseph McNeill and the Woolworth sit in
??? the kneel-ins at churches who denied blacks entry (as if God is prejudice)
1963 March on Washington
1964 Malcolm X's delivery of “The Ballot or the Bullet”
February 1965 Assassination of Malcolm X

I edited this list to include the year or years that these things happened and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 did not happen until the summer of that year.

Oh how curios none of them happened after the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

You did forget one thing from the list though.
January 1, 1863.
Now we could not give a republican president any credit for the civil rights movement now could we?
I am trying to remember how many southern states had in their state laws that slaves could be free prior to this date?

[parrotheadduff]

http://www.amazon.com/Children-David...219279&sr=1-10

A great book about the civil rights movement.

[P562045]

Well back to the theme of Christmas is evil.

We went off on a little tangent about Dr. King and the civil rights movement just about a year ago.

Now we have someone at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill that decided by herself that they should not have Christmas trees this year at the two main libraries on campus.

She gives several great reasons why she alone made this very important decision.

"Aside from the fact that a UNC-CH library is a public facility, Michalak said, libraries are places where information from all corners of the world and all belief systems is offered without judgment. Displaying Christian symbols is antithetical to that philosophy, she said."

"We strive in our collection to have a wide variety of ideas," she said. "It doesn't seem right to celebrate one particular set of customs."

Well to me these reasons are about as good a reason as the economy so sucks and they did not have enough funds to purchase the Christmas trees in the first place.

The head of the whole North Carolina college library system has another excellent reason why the Christmas trees should not be allowed in a library on one of her campuses. I am very surprised she has let this happen in one of her college libraries that she rules over for so long.

"We want everyone to feel welcome."

Story Here

[rich76]

Originally Posted by spoc22

One question I've asked and have yet to be answered is simply this:
Why can we celebrate the birthday of REVEREND Martin Luther King, Jr (a religious figure) but can't celebrate the birth of Jesus ( a religious figure)?

GREAT question Steve.