Global Warming Discussion

[hork]

rich,

do you have a link for the post you made? and if so would you please post it? i'd like to bookmark it as it offers many of the arguements i've tried to make much more concisely and eloquently than i've been able to do. thanks

[rich76]

http://www.environmentaldefense.org/page.cfm?tagID=1011

you got it ...........

here's another....

http://www.environmentaldefense.org/...svFacts_05.pdf

[P562045]

Main reasons why this is a concern in the first place.

1. People can make money off of it. I like storm's example of selling tree seeds at the state fair much earlier in this thread. And there is little doubt in my mind that he would indeed sell at least a few tree seeds.
2. Tax citizens in order to reduce the effects of global warming. And once this starts every level of government will want to tax this tax that and tax another thing. This sort of reminds me of the expansion of the SCHIPS program there is always a very good reason to do these types of things.
3. Saving the planet. I love the stories of people acting all concerned about this riding around in their private jets and limousines which by the way pollute the planet way more that an average person could do by driving and various other activities they do during their daily lives. How do I know this. Well it is very rare that people see President Bush riding around in a limo. Even the president knows that an S.U.V. will be less of a polluter than a limousine.

[StormJr]

Great Rich...now you got me going. Thanks a lot.

Originally Posted by rich76

MYTH: The science of global warming is too uncertain to act on.

FACT: There is no debate among scientists about the basic facts of global warming.

The most respected scientific bodies have stated unequivocally that global warming is occurring, and people are causing it by burning fossil fuels (like coal, oil and natural gas) and cutting down forests.
The only debate in the science community about global warming is about how much and how fast warming will continue as a result of heat-trapping emissions. Scientists have given a clear warning about global warming, and we have more than enough facts — about causes and fixes — to implement solutions right now.

This is wrong. Yes, global warming is occurring. No, not all "respected" scientists think its caused only by burning fossil fuels. Is it being enhanced by humans? Possibly. But the only cause is humans? No.

MYTH: Water vapor is the most important, abundant greenhouse gas. So if we’re going to control a greenhouse gas, why don’t we control it instead of carbon dioxide (CO2)?

FACT: Although water vapor traps more heat than CO2, because of the relationships among CO2, water vapor and climate, to fight global warming nations must focus on controlling CO2.

Atmospheric levels of CO2 are determined by how much coal, natural gas and oil we burn and how many trees we cut down, as well as by natural processes like plant growth. Atmospheric levels of water vapor, on the other hand, cannot be directly controlled by people; rather, they are determined by temperatures. The warmer the atmosphere, the more water vapor it can hold. As a result, water vapor is part of an amplifying effect. Greenhouse gases like CO2 warm the air, which in turn adds to the stock of water vapor, which in turn traps more heat and accelerates warming. Scientists know this because of satellite measurements documenting a rise in water vapor concentrations as the globe has warmed.

The best way to lower temperature and thus reduce water vapor levels is to reduce CO2 emissions.

There are scientific studies that show that the increasees of CO2 over the last 100 years come AFTER the temperature has risen. Thusly implying that CO2 rises as a RESULT of temperature increases and not vice/versa


MYTH: Global warming is just part of a natural cycle. The Arctic has warmed up in the past.

FACT: The global warming we are experiencing is not natural. People are causing it.

People are causing global warming by burning fossil fuels (like oil, coal and natural gas) and cutting down forests. Scientists have shown that these activities are pumping far more CO2 into the atmosphere than was ever released in hundreds of thousands of years. This buildup of CO2 is the biggest cause of global warming. Since 1895, scientists have known that CO2 and other greenhouse gases trap heat and warm the earth. As the warming has intensified over the past three decades, scientific scrutiny has increased along with it. Scientists have considered and ruled out other, natural explanations such as sunlight, volcanic eruptions and cosmic rays. (IPCC 2001)

Though natural amounts of CO2 have varied from 180 to 300 parts per million (ppm), today's CO2 levels are around 380 ppm. That's 25% more than the highest natural levels over the past 650,000 years. Increased CO2 levels have contributed to periods of higher average temperatures throughout that long record. (Boden, Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center)

As for previous Arctic warming, it is true that there were stretches of warm periods over the Arctic earlier in the 20th century. The limited records available for that time period indicate that the warmth did not affect as many areas or persist from year to year as much as the current warmth. But that episode, however warm it was, is not relevant to the issue at hand. Why? For one, a brief regional trend does not discount a longer global phenomenon.

We know that the planet has been warming over the past several decades and Arctic ice has been melting persistently. And unlike the earlier periods of Arctic warmth, there is no expectation that the current upward trend in Arctic temperatures will reverse; the rising concentrations of greenhouse gases will prevent that from happening.

Again...by saying that people are the single cause of GW is just not right. Because its happened before. Are we enhancing the warming? Maybe. Sole cause? No.

Those were the only ones I had issue with.

Of note: Environmentaldefense.org is partially funded by members of the Osprey Society...which of course are bent on saving the Ospreys...and the environment they live in. Which makes them a bit biased. I'm not saying...I'm just saying.


Here is an interesting site to check out. It shows where some of the US's temperature recording stations are set up. And these are some of the stations that go into the National Climatic Database and is used in research.

http://www.norcalblogs.com/watts/weather_stations/

Here is my favorite.
Right smack in the middle of PARKING LOT. Hey rich...how hot was the pavement by you last week? Probably as much as 10-20 degrees warmer than the actual air temp.

[rich76]

I won a $20 bet that I could fry an egg in less than 2 minutes on the road in front of a friend's house.AT LEAST 20 degrees.......

[hork]

Originally Posted by StormJr

Hey rich...how hot was the pavement by you last week? Probably as much as 10-20 degrees warmer than the actual air temp.

and still cooler than it was in my house last wednesday when my ac decided to take the day off.

[P562045]

Originally Posted by StormJr

Again...by saying that people are the single cause of GW is just not right. Because its happened before. Are we enhancing the warming? Maybe. Sole cause? No.

Then if this is true then people should read my post about what happened when people started messing with things that naturally occur with regards to Lake Okeechobee in Florida.

I know this is somewhat of not a typical thing that would happen if people screw with mother nature but it does show what types of things could happen no doubt.

I want to clear up one thing I said about the South Florida Water Management District. This agency is not actually run by the state. But my articles clearly shows they can be pressured to do things just like the state.

[islandgirl]

Sorry, I'm a little late on this discussion.

Without reading any of the above posts, I believe that we're going through a sort of warming phase, but I also believe we aren't helping things out with some of the things we're doing. If man wasn't here, then mother nature could sort things out on her own. But, since we've done our fair share of screwing around with her...we kind of have to be involved and try our best to clean up what we've done

[spoc22]

Originally Posted by islandgirl

Sorry, I'm a little late on this discussion.

If man wasn't here, then mother nature could sort things out on her own.

How is it that man, who is part of creation, is always accused of messing things up while all the rest of creation is just "doing what comes naturally"?
Not picking on you islandgirl. I just thought of it when I read your post.

[hork]

Originally Posted by spoc22

How is it that man, who is part of creation, is always accused of messing things up while all the rest of creation is just "doing what comes naturally"?
Not picking on you islandgirl. I just thought of it when I read your post.

i know you don't really need an answer for that as you're far too smart to actually buy into that logic (your question that is not the theological undertones) but just to humour you let's blame it on that apple.

and for the record, i agree completely with islandgirl, i too think it's a natural phenomenon exacerbated by man's actions (e.g., burning of fossil fuels and rapid deforestation)

[spoc22]

Actually Ken, I love it that people can't believe there is the possibility that there is a God that created all things yet they can believe that man, who in relation to the universe is a mere pimple on a gnat's arse, is powerful enough to destroy the planet. Now THAT'S logic I'm too smart to buy into.

[islandgirl]

Originally Posted by spoc22

yet they can believe that man, who in relation to the universe is a mere pimple on a gnat's arse, is powerful enough to destroy the planet. Now THAT'S logic I'm too smart to buy into.

Not powerful enough, just stupid enough.

[StormJr]

so you know how all the pro-GW people point to ice caps melting, right? There was a big article in the paper yesterday saying how the sea ice is the lowest its been ever. Then buried deep in the article it says they only have been measuring since 1970. ok...so what about before 1970. What about the sea ice in 1700....we have no clue what the coverage of sea ice was back then.

[StockTrader]

Originally Posted by StormJr

so you know how all the pro-GW people point to ice caps melting, right? There was a big article in the paper yesterday saying how the sea ice is the lowest its been ever. Then buried deep in the article it says they only have been measuring since 1970. ok...so what about before 1970. What about the sea ice in 1700....we have no clue what the coverage of sea ice was back then.

Shhhh! You'll ruin it!

Nick

[P562045]

Originally Posted by spoc22

Actually Ken, I love it that people can't believe there is the possibility that there is a God that created all things yet they can believe that man, who in relation to the universe is a mere pimple on a gnat's arse, is powerful enough to destroy the planet. Now THAT'S logic I'm too smart to buy into.

Originally Posted by StormJr

good thing

Here is something interesting out of Marquette:

NWS Marquette Snowiest Aprils

    1          43.4      1996
    2          34.3      2007 (through April 5)
    3          29.4      1977
    4          29.2      1982
    5          29.1      1993
    6          24.4      1972
    7          23.2      1974
    8          22.5      2003
    9          20.2      1983
  10          18.1      1985

Notice the 34.3" of snow through the 5th this year ranks as the 2nd snowiest April on record....THROUGH THE 5TH. They've probably gotten an additional 4"-8" today, with another 6"-12" tonight through Monday morning. Not only that, but the latest long range computer models depict 3-4 more full-latitude storms to affect the U.P. in the next 15 days. LMAO!! Welcome to April!

The first multi post quotes from the same thread from the new forum. I am a genius. It was around 77 degrees last night around 10 p.m. Talk about Global Warming. There are a few good things discussed in this thread about Global Warming but of course they are all by conservatives and moderates.

Why would I want to quote a bunch of posts from the same thread in the first place? I don't want to type all or C/P my most brilliant comments about Mrs. Clinton that would take forever especially in the Mrs. Clinton thread.